Episode 2 Transcript

Chris: [00:00:00] Hello, and thank you for listening to the HerSuccess podcast. We are a podcast dedicated to interviewing highly successful females within tech and engineering, with the hope of inspiring the next generation of leaders in this space. This podcast is brought to you by Engtal. We are a US recruitment company that specializes in the engineering and tech world.

 On this episode, we are gonna be interviewing, Ginnette Harvey. Ginnette is the former Senior Vice President at SThree, which is one of the largest recruitment companies in the world, and she's currently the co-founder of Harper & Gray and BlocHaus.

This is a fantastic episode. We talk to Ginnette about how and why she made the leap from her hugely successful corporate career to starting her own company. We also explore her DEI consulting business and talk through how she coaches companies on improving their diversity and belonging within their culture.

So a really great episode. I hope you guys enjoy and let's get to it.

Today I am [00:01:00] incredibly excited to be joined by Ginnette Harvey. Ginnette is a former colleague, and good friend of mine. She's had an incredibly impressive career, and she's also a, a real thought leader in the DEI space. After 15 years kind of climbing the, the ranks at SThree. They're one of the biggest recruitment companies in the world. Ginnette left in 2021 to launch her own business, Harper and Gray. And then she launched a second business a year ago, called BlocHaus. Both of which we will dig into, in today's episode.

So, Ginnette, welcome to the show.

Ginnette: Thank you. Thanks for having me. I'm excited to be here.

Chris: Yeah, absolutely. So first things first. I'd love just a bit of an overview, of your background. So maybe you could start us there.

Ginnette: Yeah, so I have spent 17 years now in the talent space. So, I was one of the founding members for the US business for the SThree group as you mentioned, which is a specialist, talent acquisition company within the [00:02:00] STEM space.

So I spent many years, growing that business from, what you could say, small, scrappy startup to , one of the, the larger recruitment companies, in North America. And having spent 15 years within that role in that organization, which was incredibly rewarding, I stepped away from the business to first found Harper and Gray, which was born out of my, passion for the DE&I space. So I, I really saw an opportunity for organizations to, really kind of do better, I suppose, when it comes to, diversifying, their leadership teams and, integrate in the, the talent process with the broader, talent management, within organizations.

So, I spent a year really kind of building, building that, and working with some [00:03:00] incredible organizations, during the journey. And then more recently, in addition to the work that I'm doing with Harper and Gray, I founded, or co-founded house, which is super exciting.

It's really following the, the sort of, transformative, trends within Web3 and blockchain. So we, we work within that ecosystem supporting all organizations to, really, find access to, to the best talent in the blockchain space.

Chris: Awesome. Well, thank you for that and congrats on obviously, you know, a very impressive career.

You know, this podcast is somewhat unique because, you and I know each other and we've worked together before and, and been friends for years. So obviously I have, more of a knowledge of your background than, than I typically do with with people on the show. One of the things I think is quite unique about your background is you obviously built a very impressive business at, at SThree.

Well, when you left the organization, roughly, what was the size of that [00:04:00] business in terms of headcount and, and GP that you oversaw?

Ginnette: Yeah, so we, were running a hundred million in revenue, for the brand that I was managing and, and lead in and, that we had 120 people. So it was, it was no small feat and it was, it was definitely something I was proud of and it wasn't easy to step away from, if I'm honest.

Chris: Yeah, I mean that, that was gonna be my my next question. You were obviously, in a very high powered role. Firstly, I imagine getting to, to that level from the ground up , took a lot of, blood, sweat, and tears. And I also imagine, you know, sure you were compensated well and, and in, in a, a good role at, at that point, what really kind of inspired you to step away from that and to really take the leap. And going from running this large organization to starting your own company?

Ginnette: Yeah, it was a few different factors. If I'm honest, doing that role for 15 years. The things [00:05:00] that, the thing, the things that excite you along the way within that journey kind of change. And I just found myself in a very, very comfortable position.

And as someone who is very entrepreneurial at heart and, and very, motivated by and professional and personal development. I felt it would be a little bit of a compromise for me to continue to stay in a role that, was, was very much kind of my comfort zone and, and credit to the organization.

There's always different places to, to kind of go and different things to do, but I think when you are, whole, you know, the vast majority of your career is tied to a specific brand and a specific network. There's more to be gained by, stepping away. And so I would say that was definitely, the push factors.

And then the pull factors for me was just looking at the [00:06:00] industry itself and, and at the time there was a lot of, conversation. Around the importance of diversity within talent. And I looked at some of the players and, and the people that were really talking about how they could make a difference, in, bringing more diversity into the talent process.

And the first thing I would do is, is kind of take a look at how diverse those search firms were. And there, honestly, there wasn't a single person on their executive leadership team that wasn't a white male. And so I felt that I could bring something a little bit different and maybe a bit more authentic with my backgrounds in, talent.

And then honestly, the work that I'd been doing internally with SThree around DE&I and, and honestly personal lived experience because I had been the only on the North American board for SThree for a really long time at, at certain points and, you know, the only woman, the only minority. [00:07:00] And, and so, I, not only did I know what that felt like, but I also knew what was to be gained by organizations that genuinely embraced and, and tried to, to move the needle on it.

So that was, those were things I was passionate about and, and it really prompted me to, to take the leap and, get up and do something about it.

Chris: So I, I imagine that, you know, there's, there's probably a fair few people listening to this podcast that may be in a similar position. You know, most of the senior execs that I know for large organizations have probably thought about starting their own business at at some point.

Because I do think they get to that level you have to have a certain level of kind of entrepreneurialism about you. And, you know, having gone through that process myself, you know, it is a big decision. And I think a lot of times people. You know, it's tempting to say, ah, just do it. You know, jump in, do it. It'll be the best thing that you've ever done. But you know, when you have a family, when, when you have, in your case children and you know, it's, so, it is a very, very big decision and, and a big kind of life [00:08:00] move. Well, what things did you do when making that decision? Could you speak with a lot of your, your network? Was it something that kind of evolved over a period of time, or was there a moment where you were like, all right, now is the time to do it. How did the kind of decision process go for you?

Ginnette: So there's a lot of, there was a lot of deferred compensation, first and foremost. So there's, there was always this feeling of I should wait until I pick up this and I, and so for a few years, I was always waiting for something.

After a certain point in time, you, you realize that you're always gonna be leaving something behind. But I do think that, companies who get it right, I mean, there is a, there's an element of rewarding loyalty and, and, so, so it was certainly a really tough decision from a financial point of view because you feel, that you've, that you've earned the money, that's, that's kind of deferred, but it can [00:09:00] really just keep you in a bit of a spiral.

So it took me longer, , it was a process of years as opposed to months just from. the financial standpoint. And the second piece was, I was highly compensated and, and I had been highly compensated for a considerable amount of time.

So when you are stepping away to go and not just leave, but go and do something that is entrepreneurial. It's a bit of a double whammy, right? Because you lose the salary and then you're fundamentally kind of utilizing your reserves to, to, to kind of bootstrap your business if that's the direction that you go.

So it was obviously kind of, I decided to, to self-fund my business. I'll be honest with you, if I could go back again, I may not have made the decision to, self-fund because I think the reasons that I felt that that was, the best route to go. The more exposure that I've had to different entrepreneurs [00:10:00] and the different ways that people have done that I could really see, have seen the benefits of, doing that different way.

So, there was definitely that, I did meet with, a lot of people who'd gone through a similar journey and that was really invaluable. And, I think the, the other thing, the other notable thing that I did before making the leap is I looked at this space that I wanted to go into and for a solid six months, every single day, and I mean it was during the pandemic, I would have a virtual coffee or a virtual lunch every day for six months straight with a different person. And so that was kind of really helpful as well. So when I, did eventually take the leap, I'd been so intentional about, you could say, kind of reviving my network or, or sort of repositioning it.

Chris: Interesting. Yeah, it's interesting when you, you think about the, the time it takes for that, transition period, obviously, you know, my personal situation, I had a six month wait when I was transferring over [00:11:00] my visa before I was able to launch my own business.

I think a lot of people have a bit of a misconception that one day it's kinda like, boom, all right, we're off. Whereas actually, you know, there's a long period of building the network, looking at the markets, putting in place, kind of various things. So when, I did make that transition, we'd almost had a kind of six month ramp up periods.

Tell us a little bit about, Harper and Gray. I know there's a few different facets, to, to that business, tell us, you know, about the structure of the organization?

Ginnette: Yeah, so, I, I thought about, diversity in a much more kind of holistic way. So I felt that when you looked at many organizations, they really kind of treated, DE&I almost each, each letter was managed, , in a very different way. And I have more of a vision for integrating those three things, right? So being able to it most notably, support organizations to hire in the right talent, [00:12:00] from diversifying, from a leadership, from an executive level down, and then really supporting companies to, onboard people in a very inclusive way.

And then, to develop the skills and capabilities within their leadership team to lead in an inclusive way. Because this, there was certainly, there's a lot of evidence around this. So organizations that, they can chase, a target, they will bring in the right amount of diversity, but they bring people in and they go out of the door just as quickly.

And it is generally because there isn't an environment that supports true inclusion and therefore you don't get the belonging. And so, so people, people vote with their feet and they leave. So I, I really wanted to support companies to think about this from end to end.

What I will say is, over time, there was [00:13:00] some great opportunities to partner with companies around training and coaching and, those other elements. But it, it is a very, very big undertaking, and it's, and it's very hard actually to, it's quite idealistic to have that golden thread between each of those, different elements.

And so over time, I, really found myself working more and more with, companies around the process of hiring, the right people in the door at the executive level and really looking at, how to set those individuals up for success in terms of, their contribution and, and onboarding, et cetera.

 I think when you first start a business, perhaps the beginning state versus the end state shouldn't look, you know, the, the same, right? Like the, there has to be a level of agility. And I certainly found that, Number one, we probably [00:14:00] thrived more on, recruiting diverse talent.

And it was, obviously a very strong fit with my background, although I'd done a lot on, on the learning and development and coaching side. I actually, utilize more of a partnership model at a certain point in time where I would partner with other organizations actually, and they would sort of help execute on some of those engagements.

Chris: Awesome. Okay. Nice. That's great. Doing consulting, arm of, of Harper and Gray, so you go into an organization, they tell you, right, you know, we, we want to improve our DE&I we don't really know where to start. But we know where we wanna get to. We wanna have a more inclusive environment, we want better, belonging, have a more diverse, more diverse workforce.

What are the first things that you do now? Where do you even start tackling something like that?

Ginnette: Yeah, so you've got different types of organizations and, and so where I would say that most companies have something really successful in place is when there is a [00:15:00] Chief Diversity Officer in place already, right?

Because they set the strategy, they set the, the agenda, and then you are really there to help to, support and make those things happen. What tends to happen, or what had intended to happen with me were, and, and my organization is, companies would not be quite at that level.

 So they, they were, on that growth journey and they knew that they wanted to, really begin to prioritize, DE&I within, within the business. That would be normally some sort of trigger for that, right? And so, that's when they would find themselves reaching out to my organization because they just didn't know where to start.

And so, the general approach is to, first meet with, the leadership team in many instances that would be the CEO, president of the company and really find out what the goals are for the [00:16:00] organization. There is a piece around values as well that needs to, it's sort of what's the commercial goals, where are you going?

But then also what's the values of the, the organization? And so through that. And then also the, the time and the budget and, all of those things help to, to define the, solution. And so what I was able to do for companies, was something that they probably wouldn't have been able to get from most other organizations is develop something that was bespoke and, met the customer where they actually were.

And so sometimes, that was, it. Really, basically around developing skills within the leadership team around inclusive leadership. So quite often the trigger point will be, You know, we've got a ton of turnover in this space, or, we've not been getting very good feedback and, and so, so just really, that holistic, deep dive with the organizations, helps you to, to develop and, and design, a [00:17:00] really great solution.

And I'll be honest with you, it was a lot of fun for, for me personally, and, a very sort of enjoyable process. Perhaps the reason that we would refer on some of those sorts of engagements now is, it wasn't terribly scalable and so, it's sort of unfortunate cause I do think that, that level of personalization is, is a benefit, but I also think that, frameworks and playbooks , and things like that sort of help, organizations also get to scale with these initiatives. So I was kind of quite thoughtful in terms of who, I would, engage to, to help support, you know, customers on that journey.

Chris: Awesome. A hundred percent.

We interrupt this podcast for a quick 30 second introduction to Engtal the host of her success Engtal is a US-based staffing agency specializing in engineering and technology. We have an insatiable passion for diversity, equity, and inclusion, and part of our [00:18:00] mission is to balance the diversity scales in our industry.

We are so tied to this mission that we donate a thousand dollars from every diverse placement made to our very own nonprofit Diversify the Future. We then use that money to fund scholarships for underrepresented groups of people to help them obtain a STEM degree. If you're an engineer or a tech professional looking for a new position, or maybe you're hiring for talent in this space and want a recruitment partner, please get in touch.

Chris: I mean, we've recorded obviously a number of these podcasts and I, I think one of the things that's come through really loud and clear is just the importance of being able to have those conversations and meeting people, like you said, where they're at. I think it's such a, personal, sometimes sensitive topic that a lot of people that maybe aren't as, aware of the, the DEI you know, how to implement, some of these strategies, it's almost easier to kind of ignore it because it's something you are not personally comfortable with as a leader.

I think, being able to have those conversations [00:19:00] say, you know what? This is something we need to improve in and we need help in this area. I imagine, you know, from a company perspective is the first step to, you know, putting in place, something that's gonna help them improve in, in that area.

Ginnette: I couldn't agree more. You are a hundred percent right. I think there's such a barrier to certain leaders asking for help in this area because they feel that their understanding should be further forward. And because their understanding isn't where they kind of feel like it should be, they, opt out of the conversation.

Actually in some instances this will be where you'll see the organization that is engaging help within, the, diversity, equity and inclusion and belonging arena, but no sign of the CEO, right? Like he doesn't actually wanna be part of the conversation. And that is, usually hiding, a gap in, understanding and so helping people to, understand and to feel.

Comfortable and just in terms of where they, they [00:20:00] are is, a huge enabler to be enabled to, to get all the right people in the room.

Chris: Yeah. And I, I mean, just from, my, my own personal experience, when I think back to my management career, I really wasn't aware of a huge amount of these issues in my early management life.

And I mean, it was only when, I almost had the confidence to say, you know what? This is now I, I need up skilling and, I'm not, an expert in, in this space. That was only when I started to gain, the knowledge and you know, had direct impact in the performance of the teams that I manage and, and now the business that I run.

 I just wasn't, in my early career, I think comfortable enough to put my hand up and say, you know what? I need help in this area. It's not something I'm particularly confident in, essentially.

Ginnette: Where, where I see this a a lot too now is, with my second business, with the blockchain business.

A lot of the founders tend to be, quite young actually, because it's, it's this sort of new tech world and you can see many of the issues as [00:21:00] well that have kind of cropped up, like particularly the highly publicized ones. You've got these, incredibly, young people who then surrounded themselves with more young people who are just like them.

And, you just run into a world of, problems. And so really when you think about DE&I as a commercial enabler, if you choose to surround yourself with people who are very different. And let's take age diversity. If you know, a seasoned person in the room is, gonna be worth its weight in gold when it comes to, making these decisions.

You don't want to look around the room and see that you are gonna be making all decisions through the, of, you know, six other people that you went to college with who are also 24 and white males, like that's not how you are going to, grow, a, a company that's got any sort of legs or there's sort of risk profile that people are gonna [00:22:00] want to go anywhere near.

Chris: Yeah. No, it is so interesting because, you know, I think our brains are wired to enjoy interacting with people like that, right? We like sitting in a bar and talking to people about politics, you know, with people that share the same political views that we share, or laughing about the same comedies that we we like, and things like that.

I think it's a very natural thing to surround yourself with people that think the same way, that you think, and in the short term from a team perspective, that you could have good success in that? I think, when I looked at my management career again in the early days, you know, we had a very, very tight-knit culture, which I personally thought was amazing.

We had relatively good gender balance, but we were all probably within three years of each other. We all liked the same sports. Apart from me being from the UK, the rest of them had all grown up in the same area. And whilst we were very tight knit and very close and we had retained a lot of those people and it was a great culture.

In some ways it was completely unscalable because whenever we brought someone in from the outside that was maybe older [00:23:00] or from a different background like you said, they would come for six months and then, they would leave. So, it's an easy trap, I think, for people to fall into, but if you really want to scale properly, you know, you've gotta be brave enough to interact with those people that, like you said, come, come from different backgrounds.

Ginnette: A hundred percent. I think people who are automatically quite oriented toward personal and professional development, tend to, it's an easier lift for them to hire, people who are different to them, or as you said, tend to automatically gravitate toward quite a diverse group of friends.

 But, it's either way, it, is something that with intentionality, you can kind of build that and, and, it starts to become muscle memory.

Yeah.

Chris: No, a hundred percent. Well, one of the things, my dad always taught me about politics was before you, kind of espouse your own ideas, figure out what the other side of the argument is. [00:24:00] Right. Either that will reinforce what you think, or maybe you change your mind. Yes. But if you understand both sides, then you make an informed opinion. And I think, you know, this is very, very similar. Talk to me a little bit about BlocHaus. I know you launched, that latest venture coming up to, a year now.

 Give us an overview of, that company.

Ginnette: Yeah, so, so BlocHaus was born out really the, I, I'm so used to being around, specialist, markets. So that part was a no-brainer, but a lot of people end up in the Web3 blockchain space. You go down a little bit of a rabbit hole where just the entire idea of decentralization, And you know, this, this overall concept of being able to, through decentralization empower the disempowered for want of a, better word, like I really saw the potential of this technology to, to really disrupt.

And in many ways it, it kind of [00:25:00] aligns with, the, the principles and values that I hold dear around DE&I, so, I truly believe that blockchain will be one of the more transformative technologies of our generation and a lot of people, conflate blockchain with crypto, right?

And, and crypto so it is just one use case for this, but it is not blockchain. And so there was so many different examples of, blockchain for good and the broader Web3 ecosystem that it felt that this was the right place to build a, a business.

Now the, the challenges, I would say is the speed of innovation and movement within, the space it's is and it's very much a global market, which mm-hmm. Makes sense, right? Decentralized. Mm-hmm. So, so there's a, in a lot of ways it's a very, very complex market, but it also makes it much more right for more of a [00:26:00] partnership model, and I like to partner with clients on, solutions and, and really that's what our entire team does. It's been a really, really interesting, an interesting choice and something that is, just a really, really exciting space to be in.

Chris: Nice. I mean, that, that was gonna be my next question. Obviously you entered into the Web3 blockchain space, at a relatively turbulent time, you know, certainly on on the crypto side. What do you see about, the market now and foresee over the next, year or two, are there any particular innovations that you are excited about and are you bullish on the, future of Web3 and blockchain?

Ginnette: I am bullish on the future of Web3 because the in some ways, I think many of us who are in the industry right now and have really endured some pain over the last 12 months, it's like every time the industry kind of stands up straight, it's another blow. But whenever there's money, [00:27:00] there's bad actors and it's as simple as that.

Right? So if you look at what happened with, with FTX, people talk about that as a crypto problem, but it's not, it's a fraud problem it's, it's no different to, Madoff. Mm-hmm. You know, it's bad actors. It's people trying to take advantage. And so when you think about things like regulation, That's not a bad thing at all.

Regulation, is gonna give people the clarity that they need to be able to, to operate and actually perhaps the confidence, in the broader community to be able to, to sort of engage. But like I said, I see blockchain and just Web3 as being there's so many other things.

if you take something like real estate. Such a, a kind of an antiquated process to go buy a house or to be a homeowner. And, a really, really high barrier [00:28:00] to entry for a lot of people. And so the idea that right now there are organizations out there that enable fractional ownership of real estate, so you can tokenize the ownership in real estate, and that's recorded on, on the blockchain, and I could just as easily sell my fractional ownership to you, Chris, the next day. I mean, that just as a small example how exciting is that? How exciting is it to be able to, remove these, barriers that, that existed. And, I think about artists and, you create this amazing piece of art and you as the artist when you sell that, it's, you make a, a little bit of money on it and then your artwork suddenly becomes worth a hundred times what it currently is, and it's really the people that then subsequently go on and, and kind of sell that get the benefit of it, not the artist.

And so the [00:29:00] ability, again, to be able to , create, there's, various different mechanisms for it. But the key thing is that I, as the artist now get, have a mechanism to be able to earn a royalty on. Or any subsequent secondary market of my, of my artwork. It's just those, those sorts of things.

The, sort of ticketed markets potentially gonna go with NFTs. And, maybe people not having to spend $3,000 on Taylor Swift tickets for the future. There's so many different kind of real world cases that, can be solved through trust and transparency on the blockchain.

Chris: Yeah. So if I sold that piece of art behind me that I made our local graffiti, kind of shop, yeah. Maybe one day I'll be a billionaire.

Ginnette: Yeah. Listen, I'd say I, I'd say I have a backup plan. Yeah.

Chris: Yeah. I'll Thanks. It was the backup plan, but yeah, no, it reminds me a bit of the machine learning and AI space sort of six or seven years [00:30:00] ago, when we toyed with that market, when we first launched, Engtal, it was kind of settling at the time and it, the market hadn't really decided where it was going.

There was a lot of great ideas, but I don't think anyone had really, everyone saw potential. But it took a few years and almost, figure itself out. But I remember at the time thinking, this will change the world. And, and recently things have started to, I think it's only the tip of the iceberg for, for that area.

It will, undoubtedly, change in the world, which, I'm sure, sure web3 will do the same. We're gonna, wrap up in, in a second, but yeah, more of a sort of personal question, here for, for anyone listening what would you say your biggest challenge has been in your career?

Obviously, you know, as, a female and a minority, so from a DEI perspective, personally, what do you think the biggest challenge has been that you've faced?

Ginnette: I think I probably, didn't realize, that I wasn't confident in certain areas. Right. It feels like a bit of an oxymoron for me cause if anybody knows me, they would [00:31:00] say bags of confidence. But, I think where I would kind of see this coming in a lot is in my earlier career.

I did what a lot of females do, which is, the prover syndrome, so I would keep proving myself over and over and over and over and over again before I'd feel entitled to, ask for something. It was really only in the later parts of my career where I would sort of really notice other people who maybe hadn't achieved.

Even a fraction of what I had on paper. And, they were very, very quick to, to sort of lobby for opportunities. I realized that I probably kept myself playing a little bit small, by not kind of recognizing that this was, this was an area that I needed to, to really sort of, develop.

So a big part of, if I'm usually asked to, speak or, deliver a keynote, is often around negotiating and advocating for, for [00:32:00] self because, I think it was something that I learned, late and I should.

Chris: Well, thanks for, for sharing that and, and what, you know, at this time of year, we've got a bunch of graduates that, just graduated college, just about to, to launch themselves in, into their career.

 What advice would you give for someone, maybe that they're in that situation, they're about to start their career with a similar background to you, or maybe they're facing the same challenge that, that you just described. What advice would you give?

Ginnette: So, I think if you're starting out, your career, , the world I think the world, does embrace, confidence.

 But I think humility in, in equal doses. Right? So when you first starting out, really prioritizing, your own personal and professional growth. So, just making sure that you surround yourself with really great mentors. Really great. You know, that's official and unofficial, that you're asking the [00:33:00] right questions and that you're navigating and, and sort of learning the rules of the road and, and, the nature of the game.

 The sooner you figure that out, you don't have to wait till you're five, 10 years into to a career. Figure out how the organization that you joined, how do things actually work around here, so you are fundamentally working, not just hard, but also, smart as well.

 I think, you know, there's a fine line between confidence and arrogance, I do think that that sort of humility and, courage are, are things that are sometimes in, kind of short supply. And I think if you can show up and, demonstrate that you have those things, that can, equally be a little bit of a superpower.

Chris: I think that's, great advice. And then final question, if you were to speak with someone again that's maybe, facing some of the challenges that, that you described, you know, that maybe they, they're not as vocal as they should be about getting what they deserve.

I know it's one thing to say it, but I imagine it's a different journey to suddenly go and stick a hand up and be like, this [00:34:00] is what I want I'm gonna take it

A lot of the people listening to this podcast, you know, men may face a similar challenge. What advice would you give someone like that?

Ginnette: I would say when it comes to negotiating for yourself or advocating for yourself, it's not something you can switch on and off. Because then suddenly it's like deep breath, it's big conversation that's come in. So the advice that I give to people is advocate for yourself all the time.

And that could be quite small things, but if you fight, if you in a mindset of always sort of self-advocate and so, pushing the parameters a little bit, maybe not taking the first thing that you are offered and, it literally, it could be anything, right?

It doesn't have to be just a work related thing, but I think that allows you to just develop a level of confidence around self advocation. And when you do get those nos or people look at you like you're crazy. For, for asking the question, you can bring some humor and some levity to a situation that then when it comes to the really important stuff, you're not [00:35:00] gonna bottle it it's not gonna be this big scary experience, because that will be kind of the way that you manage is you self-manage.

Chris: Awesome. Well, thank you. Yeah. Again, fantastic advice that I'm sure will resonate with, a lot of people listening. So that's all we have time for today. So Ginnette, thank you so much. Really, grateful for you, sharing your journey and, and some really, really valuable insights.

Yeah, thank you very much for your time.

Ginnette: Thank you. Thanks for having me.

Thank you so much for listening to today's Her Success podcast, brought to you by Engtal we hope you found this episode, instructive, educational and inspiring. Don't forget to tune in next week.