Lisa Ventura MBE - Championing Neurodiversity

[00:00:00] Hello and welcome to this episode of the HerSuccess podcast.

[00:00:04] We are the podcast that interview highly successful and aspirational women with

[00:00:08] the view to inspiring the next generation of leaders within the tech and engineering world.

[00:00:14] The podcast is brought to you by EngTal.

[00:00:16] EngTal is a leading engineering and technology recruitment firm.

[00:00:20] If you're an engineer looking for your next position or you're a company

[00:00:23] that wants to partner with a recruitment firm that truly cares about

[00:00:27] diversity, equity and inclusion, please get in contact.

[00:00:31] Today we interview Lisa Ventura.

[00:00:34] Lisa is an expert in cybersecurity awareness.

[00:00:37] She's also a writer, a speaker and openly neurodivergent.

[00:00:42] Last year she was also awarded an MBE by King Charles and she has a really varied

[00:00:48] and rich background, so I'm excited to chat with her.

[00:00:51] Without further ado, let's get to the show.

[00:00:54] Hello and welcome, everyone, to this episode of the HerSuccess podcast.

[00:00:59] I am absolutely delighted to be joined by Lisa Ventura, MBE.

[00:01:04] Lisa is a subject matter expert in cybersecurity.

[00:01:07] She's also a writer, a speaker, as well as a health and wellness coach.

[00:01:12] In addition to that, Lisa also has an MBE for services to cybersecurity

[00:01:17] and diversity and inclusion.

[00:01:19] So I'm really excited to dive into Lisa's very varied background.

[00:01:23] So, firstly, Lisa, thank you so much for being on the show and welcome.

[00:01:27] Thank you. It's an absolute honour to be here today, Chris.

[00:01:30] Thank you. Excellent.

[00:01:32] And as I said before, great to have a fellow, a fellow Brit on the show.

[00:01:36] But first things first, I'd like to get just a bit of an overview

[00:01:39] of your background and journey.

[00:01:41] What inspired you to get into the cybersecurity world and how your

[00:01:46] career started and how it's evolved up to today?

[00:01:49] So I had quite a nonlinear journey into the cybersecurity industry

[00:01:54] and I transitioned into cyber in 2009.

[00:01:57] But prior to that, I'd spent a number of years working in the entertainment

[00:02:02] industry with Chris Terranter, who wants to be a millionaire fame

[00:02:05] artist management company.

[00:02:07] Did that for quite a while and saw a millionaire go from a format on paper

[00:02:11] called Cash Mountain to the global phenomenon that it eventually became.

[00:02:15] But my ex-husband was very high up as a penetration tester and did a lot of

[00:02:21] work for the government, for the MOD, etc.

[00:02:24] And worked for Kinetic.

[00:02:25] So I was exposed to that world, if you like, through him very early on.

[00:02:30] And I was always really fascinated around the psychology of hacking,

[00:02:35] the mind of the hacker, what drives him to do it apart from the monetary side

[00:02:38] of things and also the social engineering side and the psychology

[00:02:43] of how we can see something or a phishing email or an online scam, etc.

[00:02:48] and the psychology around it and how cyber criminals will use social engineering

[00:02:53] to trick us into clicking on those links and so on.

[00:02:56] So in 2009, he then founded a cybersecurity software development company

[00:03:03] that I subsequently ended up joining when I came out of the entertainment

[00:03:07] industry to help him with his workload.

[00:03:09] So I helped him grow that business for a few years.

[00:03:12] And then when we separated and subsequently divorced,

[00:03:16] I found that I was actually more set about coming away from the business

[00:03:20] than I was about the end of the marriage.

[00:03:22] That's a whole other story.

[00:03:24] And knew I wanted to stay within cybersecurity.

[00:03:27] So I went to work at BT and worked on their short cyber product

[00:03:32] and then branched out into the cybersecurity awareness side of things

[00:03:37] and cybersecurity awareness training.

[00:03:39] I also founded the UK Cyber Security Association,

[00:03:44] which is now known today as Cyber Security Unity.

[00:03:47] And I founded that around about 2014, 2015 when I spotted a gap where

[00:03:52] there are organisations that are out there in terms of you got BCS,

[00:03:58] you've got tier, etc.

[00:04:00] There's lots of bodies that have cyber as part of them,

[00:04:05] but they tend to focus a lot more on the IT side of things as well,

[00:04:08] like BCS and CSEC, etc.

[00:04:10] So I founded the UK Cyber Security Association purely to focus just on cybersecurity.

[00:04:18] It was one of the first with cybersecurity dedicated to trade bodies,

[00:04:22] which is now rebranded to being a cybersecurity unity.

[00:04:27] So I do a lot of in terms of writing,

[00:04:30] I've been published in various publications.

[00:04:32] I do a lot of speaking as well on various topics and things within cybersecurity.

[00:04:37] And if you would at least said I was awarded an MBA in King Charles,

[00:04:41] but it's both the honest list last year for services to cybersecurity and

[00:04:45] diversity and inclusion and no one was more shocked than me when I got that letter.

[00:04:50] And boy did my impostor syndrome go through the roof.

[00:04:53] I can tell you.

[00:04:54] Yeah, well, I'm sure we'll touch on that.

[00:04:58] Did you have a cool ceremony?

[00:05:00] Did you meet any of the Royals?

[00:05:02] I had my MBA presented to me by King Charles himself

[00:05:06] at an investor to ceremony last December.

[00:05:08] Yes, I met him.

[00:05:10] Yes, amazing as a big big town of Royals.

[00:05:12] Yeah, a little starstruck.

[00:05:14] That is incredible.

[00:05:15] And yeah, I can only imagine what the impostor syndrome was doing in that scenario.

[00:05:20] You know, I know it certainly would be for me.

[00:05:22] What did this may be a broad question?

[00:05:24] What is it about cybersecurity that really sparks your passion and that

[00:05:29] you really excites you, I guess?

[00:05:31] I wouldn't say excited, but I think for me is it's all about that awareness

[00:05:37] raising piece because even though in 2024,

[00:05:41] I still have conversations with some smaller businesses and ethnic businesses

[00:05:46] that will go, well, we're too small.

[00:05:48] We don't need to worry about our cybersecurity.

[00:05:51] They're not going to bother with us.

[00:05:53] Hackers aren't going to steal anything that we've got because we're much

[00:05:57] too small to be worried about.

[00:05:59] It's like, well, but what about your supply chains?

[00:06:01] They are secure as they could be.

[00:06:04] So for me, it's all about getting that awareness out there and particularly

[00:06:08] to those smaller businesses and SMEs to say to them that you really do need

[00:06:13] to think about your cybersecurity posture and ensuring that you've got,

[00:06:18] even if it's just some of the basics of cyber hygiene in place with things

[00:06:22] like two factor authentication, etc.

[00:06:25] It's amazing how many don't even do that.

[00:06:28] So for me, that's I don't know whether it's the word.

[00:06:32] It's like, but for me, it's getting that awareness out there and actually

[00:06:37] seeing businesses implement that stuff.

[00:06:39] But also, I think from an individual perspective as well,

[00:06:42] a lot of individuals don't think they need to worry about their security.

[00:06:46] And I know so many people have been caught out with things like even

[00:06:49] the WhatsApp mom and dad scam because they're running around.

[00:06:54] They're busy. They get a text.

[00:06:55] They think it's from their son or daughter.

[00:06:57] Couple of clicks, they transferred some money and by which time it's too late.

[00:07:01] So for me, it is really about that awareness raising people.

[00:07:05] And that's what I do in terms of the flood security awareness training

[00:07:09] with organizations.

[00:07:10] And I also work with HR departments to get them to embed cyber awareness

[00:07:15] training as part of their onboarding processes as well.

[00:07:19] You see it in a lot of the bigger organizations, but again,

[00:07:21] the smaller ones don't tend to consider cyber security when they're

[00:07:25] onboarding new members of staff.

[00:07:27] So that's that's something I'm very big on as well.

[00:07:30] It's a good point.

[00:07:31] We're a smaller organization where we've never done anything like that.

[00:07:34] So yeah, that's a very good point.

[00:07:36] I do think a lot of people don't even appreciate how damaging it can be.

[00:07:40] I remember I read an article.

[00:07:41] I think it was about a year ago about a business that were a smaller

[00:07:45] organization. I think they were maybe three hundred thousand dollars in sales

[00:07:49] and twenty five people or something on those lines, maybe less.

[00:07:52] And they got hacked and they lost.

[00:07:54] I think it was seventy five thousand dollars in the business went under.

[00:07:57] And I don't think people really appreciate if you don't have the right

[00:08:01] steps in playing around with insurance and then things like that.

[00:08:04] Just opening a small business owner.

[00:08:05] That's almost petrifying.

[00:08:07] And not something like that could happen and just sink your business.

[00:08:10] Again, as a business owner myself,

[00:08:11] I do really appreciate how essential something like this could be.

[00:08:16] Absolutely.

[00:08:16] And also as well, it's not just the financial side.

[00:08:21] It's the reputational side of things and that reputational management,

[00:08:25] particularly among new clients and suppliers and so on.

[00:08:29] So it really is crucial to even to get some of the cyber hiding practices in place.

[00:08:36] Yeah, no need.

[00:08:37] The very early years we had someone who created an email address pretending

[00:08:41] to be me and they emailed one of our clients basically about an invoice

[00:08:45] saying that your invoice is due and the client had already paid the invoice.

[00:08:48] So they were never going to pay it twice.

[00:08:50] But to your point, it was just a very awkward conversation that we had to have.

[00:08:54] And the client was very frustrated and asked us that we've already paid this.

[00:08:57] Why are you asking?

[00:08:58] And then obviously the hacker was very pushy being like, you haven't paid.

[00:09:01] You need to pay right now.

[00:09:02] We did manage to get it all resolved.

[00:09:05] But I could see that in another scenario,

[00:09:07] could be a big client last that could be a dent to your reputation.

[00:09:11] And yeah, you said that kind of like, yeah,

[00:09:13] reputation management piece would have been really impacted by that.

[00:09:17] Absolutely.

[00:09:18] And what you've described happens a lot in terms of CEO fraud or the hackers

[00:09:23] of spoofing email addresses to pretend to be certain key people with an organisation.

[00:09:28] And then as you rightly said, getting people to transfer money or pay

[00:09:32] or say something's not been paid when it hasn't and so on.

[00:09:34] That's a really common side cyber crime.

[00:09:37] Yeah, absolutely.

[00:09:39] Tell me a little bit about cybersecurity unity then.

[00:09:42] What really prompted you to start the organisation and almost data down?

[00:09:47] What are you guys doing?

[00:09:48] Yeah, so a few years ago, I spotted that gap for a dedicated organisation

[00:09:54] for cybersecurity and in terms of what we do now.

[00:09:59] So the change in the rebrand for it to be known as cybersecurity unity came

[00:10:03] about a lot with feedback from our members as well in that there's a lot

[00:10:08] of great work being done not just in the UK, but on a global basis within

[00:10:13] cybersecurity, but just taking the UK alone.

[00:10:16] You've got things like you've got the National Cyber Security Centre that does

[00:10:20] the technical side of cybersecurity.

[00:10:22] You've got the UK Cyber Security Council that's got the remit for raising

[00:10:26] awareness of burn career pathways into the industry and also the remit

[00:10:31] for standards and ethics within cybersecurity.

[00:10:34] Then there are the cyber resilience centres.

[00:10:37] There's one in pretty much each regional area of the UK that's been set up to

[00:10:40] support small businesses and SMEs with their cybersecurity.

[00:10:44] Then there are all the certification bodies.

[00:10:46] So you've got things like IC2, you've got com tier, you've got SANS,

[00:10:50] you've got all the and then we've got the cyber custody here as well.

[00:10:54] So there's UK C3 and then they're all the overarching cyber

[00:10:57] custody that they manage in different areas of the UK.

[00:11:01] And so the feedback we have is there's some great work going on,

[00:11:04] there's some great initiatives, but a lot of people don't know where to go

[00:11:09] and who to engage with for which bits.

[00:11:12] So the rebranded cybersecurity unity is that we're now creating that overarching

[00:11:17] sort of independent body if you like.

[00:11:21] And we're doing a stakeholder mapping exercise to bring it all in together

[00:11:25] into one route to say, right, OK, I'm a small business and I need help

[00:11:28] with my cyber custody. Great.

[00:11:30] I'm based in West Midlands.

[00:11:32] You need the West Midlands Cyber Rebellion Centre or I'm a student and I'm looking

[00:11:36] to get into cybersecurity. Brilliant.

[00:11:38] Engaged with the council, they're going to help you with cyber pathways

[00:11:42] into the industry depending on what area you're looking at of getting into.

[00:11:46] So that's the thought of cybersecurity.

[00:11:49] And I do a lot in terms of my day to day

[00:11:53] to support our members and subscribers.

[00:11:55] We're launching a content hub as soon as well.

[00:11:58] And I go out and do a lot of speaking engagements of awareness,

[00:12:01] raising and really looking for those key issues and those things that are going on.

[00:12:06] So a big thing for us at the moment is around artificial intelligence.

[00:12:11] And great as some of these initiatives are,

[00:12:13] we're doing a big awareness piece at the moment of going, hang on.

[00:12:18] Some of the advice that we would be giving say a year or two ago might have

[00:12:22] been to things like look at the spelling and grammar of emails and look at

[00:12:26] the way it's written with the learning language models and things like

[00:12:29] that, chat to E.P.T.

[00:12:30] That's just getting slightly harder to spot now, whether an email is genuine or not.

[00:12:36] And again, if you're really busy and you're expecting a parcel from, say,

[00:12:39] DHR off the top of my head, you'll click on that link and then it's too late.

[00:12:44] So we look for those key topics, those trends and we do a lot of work

[00:12:49] and awareness raising around that.

[00:12:51] Nice. Yeah, it's good to know.

[00:12:52] I imagine technology is just so fast moving that you're almost fighting

[00:12:56] this kind of hydro where you travel one head, another one comes up like just a

[00:13:00] constant treadmill of like staying ahead of technology trends.

[00:13:04] And I guess if you pause that for a year,

[00:13:06] the world will look very different in a year from now than it does today

[00:13:09] for those exact reasons.

[00:13:11] So yeah, that makes sense.

[00:13:12] I didn't think about using chat E.P.T.

[00:13:15] to create some of those hacking emails.

[00:13:17] I'm sure you could make them look incredibly authentic compared to the

[00:13:21] ones that maybe people were receiving a year or so ago.

[00:13:24] Yeah, absolutely.

[00:13:25] So let's switch gears a little bit now and talk about neurodiversity.

[00:13:30] I know that you are very says in your LinkedIn openly,

[00:13:33] a divergent and that's something that we did a topic.

[00:13:37] It was actually the first podcast we ever did.

[00:13:39] We interviewed a lady who was CEO of a firm and 90 percent of their employees

[00:13:45] were neurodivergent.

[00:13:47] So they built a whole company from people on the neurodivergent spectrum.

[00:13:53] But for anyone listening who's not familiar with this,

[00:13:56] what is neurodiversity for a start?

[00:14:00] So it's an umbrella term that covers a range of different such as autism, ADHD,

[00:14:08] dyspraxthia, dysculia, dyslexia and so on.

[00:14:12] And for myself, as you rightly said,

[00:14:15] I have the hashtag opening neurodivergent even my LinkedIn.

[00:14:17] And I talk a lot about being neurodivergent myself.

[00:14:23] I was diagnosed, it was actually by chance with autism in 2018.

[00:14:27] But I was then also diagnosed with the co-mobility of ADHD in January last year.

[00:14:35] And also looking at the possibility of having dyspraxia because a lot of those

[00:14:40] signs and symptoms that I thought were just part and parcel of being autistic

[00:14:44] looks like it is a condition that's so right, which is dyspraxia.

[00:14:48] And I guess for me in terms of how it shaped my my career,

[00:14:53] I wasn't diagnosed until I was probably around about 42, 43 when I was diagnosed

[00:14:59] with autism and when I was, it made so much sense that so much of what I

[00:15:05] struggled with in the workplace previously.

[00:15:07] For example, I would spend a week in an office and then I would come home

[00:15:13] on a Friday night and I would be so exhausted.

[00:15:16] I wouldn't start to even fully recover from that until the Sunday night.

[00:15:20] And then I got to go and do it all over again on a Monday.

[00:15:22] But I just accepted that that's the way it was.

[00:15:26] You get to work, you go into the office, you come home, you have your weekend.

[00:15:30] And that was how I was brought up.

[00:15:31] And that's what what I did.

[00:15:33] So I just accepted that that's the way it was.

[00:15:35] And I go on with it.

[00:15:37] But I made the move to working fully remotely from home.

[00:15:40] And it made such a difference because I struggle a lot with the sensory overload

[00:15:46] of lots of noise and interruptions.

[00:15:48] And even if somebody is cooking something in a kitchen, even the smell of that or,

[00:15:53] you know, patterns, colours, all of that stuff.

[00:15:57] And that's why I found the office environment really difficult for me.

[00:16:01] But when I was able to be in my own

[00:16:03] environment and set up the space how I wanted, I found that my productivity

[00:16:07] just went through the roof and I was just so much better when working with my in

[00:16:13] my own space. And also for me, I work better as an individual rather than in a team

[00:16:19] or in a group.

[00:16:20] So I'm really good when I've got a certain number of tasks that I know what I'm doing

[00:16:25] and I can just get on with it and focus on it and not have to work with

[00:16:29] a group of people or rely on other people.

[00:16:32] So I mean, I can certainly do it.

[00:16:35] But I'm better when I'm able to just get on with my tasks and do them to the best

[00:16:40] of my ability. So that's my front end to well, to be a neurodivergent.

[00:16:46] But in terms of businesses that actually want to create that culture

[00:16:50] to be neurodivergent friendly, what I would say is that every neurodivergent

[00:16:56] person is different and there's no one size that fits all.

[00:17:00] So I think, you know, work with your mental stuff that you know when

[00:17:04] you're a divergent to put those adaptations that they might need on an

[00:17:08] individual basis in place.

[00:17:10] So one of the things I'm looking at working on at the moment is launching

[00:17:15] the idea of a, I guess almost like a needs passport.

[00:17:19] So it would be something like hashtag my neurodivergent needs that sort of

[00:17:24] lists out what you need to thrive and what you need to be successful

[00:17:29] in your role and what will help you.

[00:17:32] And that could be things like that flexibility, like some remote working,

[00:17:37] or it could be having a quiet space to go into every now and again,

[00:17:41] just to be able to decompress and get away from the noise, etc.

[00:17:46] If that's something that bothers you in the way that bothers me.

[00:17:50] So having those things listed out of saying, you know, hi, my name is Lisa.

[00:17:54] And these are the things that I need to help me function at my best.

[00:17:57] And I think that's it's great for the organisation and it's great for the

[00:18:01] individual as well.

[00:18:02] We interrupt this podcast for a quick 30 second introduction to Intel,

[00:18:06] the host of her success.

[00:18:08] Intel is a US based staffing agency specialising in engineering and technology.

[00:18:12] We have an insatiable passion for diversity, equity and inclusion.

[00:18:16] And our mission is to balance the diversity scales in our industry.

[00:18:20] We are so tied to this mission that we donate

[00:18:22] $1,000 from every underrepresented placement made to her very own

[00:18:26] nonprofit diversify the future.

[00:18:27] We then use the money to fund scholarships for underrepresented groups of people

[00:18:32] to help them obtain a STEM degree.

[00:18:34] If you're an engineer or a tech professional looking for a new position

[00:18:37] or maybe a hiring talent for this space and want a recruitment partner,

[00:18:42] please get in touch.

[00:18:44] Yeah, no, I did 100 percent.

[00:18:46] I mean, I've worked quite a lot with neurodivergent individuals.

[00:18:50] And one of the things that I've noticed is that typically they're

[00:18:53] incredibly self aware and they're very aware of what they need.

[00:18:57] So they're aware of environments that they're not going to thrive in.

[00:19:00] And I think simply asking that question, right, tell me what do you need?

[00:19:04] My family has been incredibly productive.

[00:19:06] Very open to it.

[00:19:07] OK, this is what I struggle with.

[00:19:09] This environment is not going to be conducive to the way that I learn.

[00:19:12] This is where I think I'm going to be my best and being able to accommodate

[00:19:16] that is 100 percent.

[00:19:18] And I thought it was interesting what you talked about initially

[00:19:23] about not being diagnosed until an older age.

[00:19:26] I think now in the current world, we're pretty good at diagnosing children

[00:19:30] at a very early age with autism and various other things.

[00:19:34] But there are people that grew up in other generations that just wasn't really a thing.

[00:19:39] And I think there are a lot of people of a certain age that go through life,

[00:19:43] not realizing that some of the challenges they face are because of that.

[00:19:47] In my life struggle was really mild under depression.

[00:19:50] And I just didn't recognize it for such a long period of time.

[00:19:53] There was years where I just I just thought this was pretty normal.

[00:19:56] And just to suck it up and get on with it because everyone has troubles and things

[00:20:00] like that, and it was only when I actually got worse and I went to the doctor.

[00:20:04] Look, you have this, take this medication and then it was completely gone within

[00:20:09] a couple of weeks, but really opened my eyes to the fact there are so many

[00:20:12] mental health challenges that I think people don't even realize they have.

[00:20:16] And I think shining a light on that and bringing awareness to it is really critical.

[00:20:22] Absolutely.

[00:20:23] And I think it is getting a lot better.

[00:20:25] And I think people are starting to sort of recognize now that they might have

[00:20:30] some neurodivergent that they want to look at getting a diagnosis for.

[00:20:35] Funny story was when I went to my parents about it and I had the diagnosis in writing

[00:20:41] and I remember I sat them down and I told them.

[00:20:44] And again, this is a really interesting thing just from that generational

[00:20:47] perspective that you mentioned because something down told them about it.

[00:20:50] And I said, and here it is in writing.

[00:20:51] And I remember my dad picked up and he threw it down.

[00:20:54] He said, no, I said, no, you can't possibly be autistic.

[00:20:57] I said, no, that's fine.

[00:20:58] But I looked at why you think that when I'm sure the person that's diagnosed

[00:21:04] me has got a lot of experience, diagnosed many, many people.

[00:21:07] I don't think they're wrong.

[00:21:08] I'd love to hear you think why you think that they are.

[00:21:11] And my mum chimed in and went because when you were at school,

[00:21:15] not one of your teachers said to us that you might be autistic.

[00:21:19] So you can't possibly be autistic.

[00:21:20] And it really just goes to show that generational things, isn't it?

[00:21:25] Of how people view it.

[00:21:28] Yeah, no, 100 percent.

[00:21:30] You know, just kind of that generation, some of my grandfathers generation

[00:21:34] that fought in the war and they almost have that pull your socks up

[00:21:37] and kind of mentality.

[00:21:38] And that was always something that I thought at a young age of like,

[00:21:42] suck it up, pretend it's not happening, move on, put it to the back,

[00:21:45] you brain will go away and I've been off for a long period of time.

[00:21:48] Whereas it didn't.

[00:21:49] And yeah, I think the world will be far better place because of the awareness

[00:21:54] and where we're at, but it is a very important topic.

[00:21:57] If you were to give advice to someone this neurodivergent,

[00:22:01] so someone who's listening to this podcast, maybe they're early in their

[00:22:04] career or they're graduating this year and about to start a career

[00:22:07] and they're aware that they are neurodiverse.

[00:22:10] What advice would you give them?

[00:22:12] I would I think for me is not being afraid to disclose it early on

[00:22:17] because even when it's diagnosed, I was really worried about disclosing it

[00:22:23] or talking openly about it because that fear of I'm going to be judged

[00:22:28] and what people might think or so on.

[00:22:30] So I think the best advice I can give is to not be afraid to disclose it

[00:22:36] and have those conversations with the employer quite early on

[00:22:40] and have those discussions with HR and whoever you need to have them

[00:22:43] with us as well.

[00:22:45] That's something that's really helped me, but I do appreciate how daunting it

[00:22:50] to be able to stand up and say I am able to stick in these

[00:22:54] the things that I need to help me thrive because I do think it is a bit

[00:22:59] to wait towards the employer's needs, but it is a two way street.

[00:23:03] And I think if you can do that and really sort of early on say

[00:23:07] this is what I need to help me function and have full disclosure about

[00:23:11] being neurodivergent, it can really help.

[00:23:14] Yeah, yeah, no, I couldn't agree more.

[00:23:17] It's interesting what one of the things that I talked about one of my previous

[00:23:20] podcast was just how there's no there's no such thing as normal.

[00:23:24] Right? People use this phrase normal.

[00:23:27] But when you look at the spectrum of people and about our work environment here

[00:23:31] is so you have a portion of people that are neurodivergent.

[00:23:35] You have a portion of people that came from different cultures and different

[00:23:38] backgrounds, a portion of people that experience trauma in their lives.

[00:23:41] And carrying that you have other people that suffer from depression and anxiety.

[00:23:46] You have other people who grew up very impoverished background and are learning

[00:23:50] to navigate the world.

[00:23:52] So that's something as well.

[00:23:54] I always stress, stress to people.

[00:23:56] It's not the work most of the world is like this.

[00:23:59] And then neurodivergent people are over here.

[00:24:01] No one is normal.

[00:24:02] Everyone has something that they're dealing with.

[00:24:04] And I think it's very important to build up an organisation to really

[00:24:07] think about that.

[00:24:08] I'd love to just come in on what you said about there's no such

[00:24:11] thing as normal and everybody's different.

[00:24:14] And that's so true because again for myself,

[00:24:17] I used to hide a mask so much before I was diagnosed.

[00:24:22] And I used to hide what I considered to be my weird interests and things.

[00:24:27] One of them is around anything and everything to do with nuclear war

[00:24:32] and the Cold War period, particularly the 60s, 70s and 80s.

[00:24:36] But I would never talk about that.

[00:24:38] I wouldn't disclose it.

[00:24:39] I always hid it.

[00:24:41] And now, if you can see behind me, I embrace it and I've got the protection

[00:24:45] of life, which is from the public information films from years ago and so on.

[00:24:50] Because that interest is part of what makes me me.

[00:24:53] So I don't hide things like that anymore.

[00:24:57] So much better when they are their authentic selves.

[00:25:00] Right? You're better as a friend.

[00:25:01] You're better as a partner.

[00:25:03] You're better as an employee.

[00:25:04] But like if you have an environment where people can just be

[00:25:07] authentically themselves as a company,

[00:25:09] your production levels all go through the roof.

[00:25:11] They won't.

[00:25:13] So not only is it thickly the right thing to do, I think there's a very real

[00:25:18] impact in the bottom line as well, because I think you'll get far more

[00:25:21] production at people that work for you if they're able to be authentic

[00:25:25] and in the working environment.

[00:25:26] Absolutely.

[00:25:28] So yeah, tell us about your MBE.

[00:25:31] So that's an incredible beat.

[00:25:32] You're the first person we've had on podcast to win an MBE.

[00:25:35] And yeah, what were some of the things that you did?

[00:25:39] That allowed you to win that honour?

[00:25:42] I think, well, not I think I didn't know who would nominated me.

[00:25:46] I had no idea of the process.

[00:25:48] I had no idea about it until I had a letter out of the blue in May last year.

[00:25:53] But I have since discovered that it's for the work I've done with

[00:25:58] the UK Self Security Association now for security unity and that whole piece

[00:26:03] around building communities within the cyber security industry,

[00:26:07] which is something else that I've done a lot of over the years and also

[00:26:11] being so open about being neurodivergent and talking about my struggles as someone

[00:26:17] that has autism and ADHD.

[00:26:19] So I believe it's around all that piece.

[00:26:22] I've got a really strong presence on social media and I talk a lot on LinkedIn

[00:26:26] and Twitter and so on or X now, it's called, I still keep calling it Twitter.

[00:26:30] I talk a lot as well about about it being neurodivergent and how I used

[00:26:35] to navigate it and things that help me in the hopes that they can help with the people.

[00:26:41] And it was just such a shock.

[00:26:43] In fact, it's a true story.

[00:26:45] The day I got I got the letter, the first thing I thought was this is a scam.

[00:26:50] This is not this is not real.

[00:26:53] First thing I thought, but there's a phone number at the top of it.

[00:26:56] So I'm sort of looking at the phone if I'm thinking

[00:26:59] I'll give it to a ring, but I will put the one for seven one in front

[00:27:04] of my number so they can't get my number.

[00:27:07] I see where that bar I've found the number and it was answered by a very

[00:27:14] well spoken lady and that part of her.

[00:27:17] Oh, my goodness, I think this is actually real and spoke to her for a couple

[00:27:21] of minutes and she confirmed it.

[00:27:23] It absolutely was as you said, you're not the first person to phone

[00:27:27] to check about about this, but no, it absolutely is real.

[00:27:31] And then when my husband got home from work and I showed him the letter,

[00:27:36] once we got over all the congratulations, I can't believe it.

[00:27:39] Peter asked me, he said, you should have realised that that was genuine.

[00:27:43] And I said, why? He said, look at the quality of that paper.

[00:27:46] That's been paid for by taxpayers money.

[00:27:49] And I said, but they'll go to any of all lengths to get it.

[00:27:53] He really will.

[00:27:55] Yeah, I'll say that.

[00:27:56] I give it what you want me and being for it.

[00:27:58] It was always it was surprising when you didn't think it was a scam.

[00:28:01] But that's the area.

[00:28:02] So yeah, great story then.

[00:28:04] Congrats.

[00:28:06] That must be such a such a shocking moment when that came through the post.

[00:28:12] You know, it absolutely is.

[00:28:14] And as well, meeting King Charles to be presented with it because it was so

[00:28:20] close to Christmas because it was on the 19th of December last year,

[00:28:23] I'd resign myself to I'm sure it's going to be Prince William or possibly Prince

[00:28:28] Yssan, I thought maybe in childhood we've got to sundry and by then ready for

[00:28:31] Christmas, got to Windsor the day before.

[00:28:34] And then on the night I'm looking at BBC News, I saw a news item that Prince

[00:28:38] William had had to go out to Kuwait because somebody quite prominent had passed

[00:28:42] away over there, so he gone to represent the Royal Family, etc.

[00:28:45] So I thought it was probably going to be Prince Yssan.

[00:28:48] And then I'm driving up to the castle

[00:28:50] and I'd gone with my cousin and a couple of friends and one of my friends

[00:28:54] said the flags flying to signify that the Monarchs in residence.

[00:28:57] So you've got the King.

[00:28:58] I'm like, I'm so nervous from that point forward.

[00:29:01] I can't talk to you, but he was he was so nice and put you at ease.

[00:29:06] And yeah, the little chat to him, it was it was a really lovely moment.

[00:29:10] So I really honoured as well.

[00:29:12] So honoured.

[00:29:14] No, I imagine, yeah, what a moment.

[00:29:16] So that must have been you touched on Impostor Syndrome.

[00:29:20] But that's a topic that comes up a lot in our podcast.

[00:29:23] And it's interesting that guests that we interview here are all very

[00:29:27] successful people, some of them are CEOs of a thousand person company.

[00:29:31] Others are entrepreneurs and scientists and we interviewed someone who's a rocket

[00:29:35] scientist and NASA and every single person struggles with Impostor Syndrome.

[00:29:40] Like no matter how successful they are, I think that's one of the common

[00:29:45] threads that links everyone to candidates on this podcast.

[00:29:48] Do you think Impostor Syndrome is more prevalent in divergent people?

[00:29:55] I actually do.

[00:29:56] And funny enough, I've actually done some research into a couple of areas on this.

[00:30:00] One issue just said is is it more prevalent in those of the neurodivergent?

[00:30:05] And that's certainly something that I found and something that for me,

[00:30:09] I've struggled with forever.

[00:30:12] Everything that I've done is I've always had the biggest

[00:30:15] amounts of Impostor Syndrome so much so in fact that I'm actually a co-founder

[00:30:20] along with two of my colleagues of International Impostor Syndrome Awareness Day

[00:30:25] because we don't talk about it a lot.

[00:30:28] As you rightly said, it's something that everybody has to some degree,

[00:30:33] yet nobody wants to talk about it or admit to it because that would almost

[00:30:39] reinforce that they're afforded in some way.

[00:30:42] So we have the Awareness Day on 13th April.

[00:30:45] We've been running it for about three odd years now just to open up the

[00:30:49] conversation about it and get more people talking about it and sort of go.

[00:30:54] I'm giving a fuse to hints and tips and things that might help to

[00:30:58] I'll never so overcome it because I think it's something you've never overcome.

[00:31:02] I prefer to say it's something you learn to manage a bit more.

[00:31:07] And just this last month in January, I did a course on neurodiversity

[00:31:12] in the workplace so that I can actually go out into organisations and train

[00:31:17] them about the benefits of hiring neurodivergent people like myself and the

[00:31:21] reasonable adjustments and things that they can put in place.

[00:31:24] And one of the ladies on the cohort had a really interesting take on it.

[00:31:29] And I hope she'll come and do a discussion with me on the day because

[00:31:34] she actually has given a name to her impostor syndrome and she calls it Doris.

[00:31:39] And she's always telling Doris to go away or

[00:31:43] when those voices are there.

[00:31:45] And I just thought that was so, so good that she gave it a process to intro my name like that.

[00:31:50] Yeah, that's funny.

[00:31:52] It obviously humanises it when you give it a name, but it is definitely a thing

[00:31:56] like I could hear Doris in my mind a lot of the time.

[00:31:58] You're supposed to be here.

[00:31:59] Is the role you're in too big for you?

[00:32:02] Yeah, no, that's fine.

[00:32:04] We're nearly at the end of our time.

[00:32:05] But she has gone really quickly.

[00:32:06] It's been a really great conversation.

[00:32:08] The last question, you obviously work on the cusp of innovation.

[00:32:12] There's a number of different things that you're doing right now.

[00:32:15] Tell me something that you're really excited about for two thousand and twenty four.

[00:32:19] Yeah, I'm excited to see where AI is going.

[00:32:24] I think there's some great potential and so on there.

[00:32:27] But I think from a security side of it,

[00:32:30] I think a lot more needs to be done, a lot more thought needs to go into it.

[00:32:35] And so I mentioned about cyber criminals using the learning language models

[00:32:39] like chat GTP to craft phishing emails that are for example.

[00:32:43] But also some of those learning language models

[00:32:47] are also being used to write malicious code and things like that.

[00:32:51] So I'm excited, but I also think there needs to be a lot more thought

[00:32:56] in governance and so on into it because it's one of those that the genius

[00:33:00] kind of out of the bottle now it's out everything these days is AI this

[00:33:05] or that or also on.

[00:33:07] But I think, yes, and some careful consideration around the security aspects

[00:33:12] of it do need to be looked at.

[00:33:14] Yeah, I've heard and I hope this is the case that a lot of real major leaders

[00:33:20] in this world of Elon Musk's and like really collaborating on the dangers

[00:33:26] of AI making sure that we keep things stopped and it doesn't become just

[00:33:30] out of control software that could really damage the world.

[00:33:34] Anyway, I mean, yeah, that's all we have time for it.

[00:33:36] I mean, Lisa, thank you so much.

[00:33:38] And I think we've covered two relatively different topics with cyber security

[00:33:42] and then going into neurodiversity.

[00:33:44] But yeah, I thought it was a really fantastic discussion.

[00:33:47] I'm sure our listeners will feel likewise.

[00:33:49] And yeah, just very much appreciate your time.

[00:33:52] Thank you so much.

[00:33:53] It's been an honor today, Chris. Thank you.

[00:33:55] Awesome. Well, thank you everyone for listening.

[00:33:58] I hope you enjoyed today's discussion.

[00:34:00] Please dial in next week for our next episode.

[00:34:03] Thank you so much for listening to today's Her Success podcast brought to you by Aintel.

[00:34:08] We hope you found it inspiring and insightful.

[00:34:11] For more conversations with inspirational women, why not check out our interviews

[00:34:15] from season one?

[00:34:16] If you enjoy the podcast, please take a moment to rate and review us on your

[00:34:20] favorite podcast platform.

[00:34:22] Your feedback helps us grow and reach more listeners who can benefit

[00:34:26] from these empowering conversations.

[00:34:28] Don't forget to connect with us on LinkedIn at her success and follow

[00:34:31] us on Instagram at her success, the community for daily dose of inspiration.

[00:34:35] Want even more of her success in your life?

[00:34:38] Sign up for a newsletter on our website to receive exclusive information on future

[00:34:42] episodes, blogs by our amazing guests, special features, upcoming events and much more.

[00:34:48] Thank you for being a part of her success community.

[00:34:50] Stay tuned for our next episode in two weeks time.