Embracing Minds: Neurodiversity and the Super Power of Active Listening

Episode Transcript:

Embracing Minds:

Neurodiversity and the Super Power of Active Listening

Chris: [00:00:00] Hello, and thank you for listening to the HerSuccess Podcast. A podcast dedicated to interviewing highly successful females within tech and engineering, with the hope of inspiring the next generation of leaders within this space. This podcast is brought to you by Engtal. We are a recruitment company that specializes in the engineering and technology field.

On today's episode, we interview Tara May, and Tara is the CEO of Aspiritech. They're a Chicago based, tech firm where 93% of their staff is on the autism spectrum.

This is a fantastic episode. We talk about neurodiversity. What is it and why is it important? We also dive into the art of listening and how essential that is in effectively driving change in business. I hope you enjoy, today's episode and let's get to the show.

Hello everyone and welcome to this edition of HerSuccess podcast. Today I'm incredibly [00:01:00] excited to be joined by Tara May. Tara is the CEO of Aspiritech. They're a Chicago based tech company specializing in quality assurance and testing services. But what is most unique about Aspiritech is that the majority of the workforce is on the autism spectrum, and their mission is to allow these individuals to fulfill their potential, through meaningful employment, and, social opportunities. In addition to that, Tara is also on the board of a number of, other companies she is a Forbes contributor as well as a, neurodiversity champion, all of which we are going to dig into today.

So Tara, thank you, so much for agreeing to be on the show and welcome.

Tara: Thank you for having me, Chris. I'm excited to be here.

Chris: Oh, me too. So first things first, I wanted to, dig into your background. You certainly have a very varied background looking at your LinkedIn. I believe you started as a crime reporter, a bit of product management, and now you're the, the CEO of, an organization here in Chicago.

 So yeah, give us an [00:02:00] overview of where you come from and what your background looks like.

Tara: So my whole life from when I was a child, I wanted to go into journalism. So I went to Michigan State and got a degree in journalism. I worked at the student newspaper. I had my first job out of college as a crime reporter in Roswell, New Mexico.

I've got some great stories around that, that we'll save for another day. But it was an awful time to be in print journalism. The industry was declining. Media was going through a rapid transformation or more accurately failing to go through a rapid transformation, and so I really found that there was a gap in people who understood how to move print journalism, legacy newspapers into the digital landscape, and I was a learner.

I loved, understanding how to build products, how to build audience, and I quickly started to fill that gap. I launched one of the Chicago Tribune's inaugural digital products and was recruited by AOL to [00:03:00] launch one of their, national news digital products. And because there were not a lot of executives who understood tech and digital, I quickly found myself filling a, a dearth of leadership and being a very young executive overseeing product teams, development teams, user experience and understanding how to use digital to reach a wider audience and engage with them.

So it was a really interesting career path and a very quick shift I made in a short period of time.

Chris: Yeah. Wow. It certainly, certainly sounds like it. I noticed, prior to, your current position, you are an organization called, called Winsight. Um, And then you joined, Aspiritech just over a year ago to run the company essentially become their, their CEO.

Why did you make that move? What was it about the company and the mission that prompted you to make the jump into that role?

Tara: So Winsight was an incredible organization. It was a B2B media company, and I came in much like I did at all my other positions [00:04:00] to help transform them from a legacy magazine company into a digitally progressive company.

And we spent seven years, exploding the digital audience. We had something like 2000% growth in digital audience over five years, and we saw the revenue increase accordingly. So we had huge success. But I felt like I had really done my job there and I had a, really serious health scare, to the point where I was taking out a life insurance policy and, wondering if I was going to make it.

 I really wanted to search for something with meaning. And I did this executive coaching exercise and this woman asked me, well, if you could do anything resources and money were no problem, you could do anything, what would you do? And I said I would be CEO because I love being in charge.

But I would love to champion neurodiversity around the world. My son is on the autism [00:05:00] spectrum. I know how brilliant the neurodivergent mind is. I know how the world is built for neurotypical people and how with the right supports, people can just thrive and reach their fullest potential.

And I don't even believe in this stuff, Chris. But less than two weeks later, the job description for the Aspiritech CEO landed in my lap.

Chris: Wow.

Tara: And I thought, My dream job, I just manifested my dream job.

Chris: Mm-hmm.

Tara: And I was sitting in my bed at close to midnight. My husband was snoring next to me, and I whipped off a cover letter from the bottom of my heart and sent it over to the board.

And eventually they chose me to take over for the founders, and it all felt very meant to be.

Chris: Yeah. Wow. That is, that is an amazing story. I'm kind of with you. I don't tend to believe in some of that stuff, but every now and again, you hear a story and you're like, wow, I've manifested that to, happen, but that's, that's incredible.

Tell [00:06:00] us a little bit about, Aspiritech. Like, what, what do they do? What's the mission behind it? How do they get founded?

What does that look like?

Tara: Aspiritech is a really unique organization because we're nonprofit by tax status and by mission, so that every dollar that we make goes back into our team and our mission.

But we operate like a business. So, you know, we have $7 million in revenue. You know, Medium-sized company. We have about a hundred employees. 93% of our team members are autistic adults.

Chris: Wow.

Tara: And so we do tech services for everything from two man startups to Fortune 500 companies. We do quality assurance, which is really our stronghold. But we also do accessibility testing for websites and apps, and we do data services, so things like Salesforce cleanup, CRM cleanup, data migrations, model building, all that sort of thing. And we do it at an [00:07:00] hourly rate on demand for our clients. And 95% of our revenue is client revenue. So we don't operate on government funding.

We do have some really incredible partners who help us do extra things for our team members through donations. But really we're a business that works like a business.

Chris: Wow. That's, that's amazing. And, And you have obviously come up through the the business world in, you know, a non neurodiverse type environment.

What describe the biggest differences , when you look at the culture between what, goes on at Aspiritech versus, a non neurodiverse company. What's the differences in the culture?

Tara: It's interesting that you ask that because it was actually my biggest fear in taking on the position.

You know, I understand user experience and the development cycle very, very well. I know business and how to market and scale and grow, and so I came in very confident that I could handle the business side of things, but I had never been a [00:08:00] leader to a group of autistic individuals, and I wondered, do I have the skillset for that?

What's going to be different? What do I need to understand? And I came into it, and I think the biggest thing I've learned over the past year is it's not any different. It's a group of a hundred humans, just like the a hundred humans that I led at Winsight with strengths and weaknesses and different communication styles and every workplace is neurodiverse, whether you know it or not, right? We all have different kinds of brains that learn differently and think differently, and I think what's different about Aspiritech is we acknowledge that.

Mm-hmm.

We stop and say, you know, this is an important part of our identity.

Inclusion is an important part of our identity. Understanding each other in different brains is an important part of our identity. Creating a culture where people thrive and are their best selves is part of our identity, and to me, having that front and center is the biggest [00:09:00] difference. But leading a group of a hundred plus talented people is the same.

Chris: Oh, that's, that's so interesting. It's almost like you guys have an advantage out of the gate because you, you know, all of that is just, is just on the table. Right? You know, I think one of the biggest challenges that a lot of organizations face and I can speak, you know, for the companies that I run as well, is that piece is understanding that people learn differently, people communicate differently, people are motivated by different things.

And once you overcome that barrier as an organization, I think you've become very, very successful. But with you guys, some would say you didn't even have that barrier initially cause the whole foundation of the company, was built on that essentially.

Tara: I could not agree more. And one of my fundamental philosophies is that kindness and listening and caring about people, will actually make your company drive more revenue through innovation. Innovation happens in psychologically safe spaces. It happens when people feel comfortable sharing their ideas, when they feel like it's okay to [00:10:00] fail and screw up because we're all gonna be in it together and we're gonna figure out what to do next to fix it. That doesn't happen in unkind, difficult cultures. It happens in collaborative, meaningful cultures that are inclusive and psychologically safe. And when you want transformation to happen, particularly digital transformation and the pace at which it moves, you need people to feel like they can innovate.

Chris: Yeah, I could not agree more.

I think the psychological safety piece is, you know, it is just so important. I did a talk on this recently and I really described it as, the relationship between the employer and the employee. And really when you look at it like that, if you think of the relationships, with your spouse or your parents or your children or your best friends, you want those relationships to be, transparent.

You want them to be honest, you want them to be secure in that, like, you know, if you mess up as a child, your parents don't take you to the orphanage. Right. You know, there, there's, There's so space to say, right. Business is no different. Right. You know, if people think around the moment [00:11:00] they, mess something up, they, they're gonna be fired.

Like, you know, it is a very, tough, psychological, place to be in. So I think, you know, when you're trying to build a culture and like you said, innovate and things like that, starting with how strong is my relationship with, the kind of people that work here. I think is a good place to start.

Tara: I'm gonna steal that orphanage metaphor, Chris. That is brilliant.

Chris: Yeah, I mean it's, yeah, I think it's very, very true. I, when started my early career, worked for a bit of a hire and fire environment. And even though, I was, at the time, relatively successful.

In the back of my mind there was always that kind of like, if I go through two or three months of poor performance, which if I work for this company for 10 years, the likelihood is that is gonna happen, there's a realistic chance I can lose my job. And that stunts, like you said, so much of the innovation and the commitment and loyalty, because you are always thinking, you know, it's almost like being on treadmill.

Eventually I'm gonna stop running and then I'm gonna be kicked off.

Tara: We're humans 24 hours a day. We don't stop being humans in the [00:12:00] workplace,

mm-hmm.

And so I, I felt the exact same way at newspapers where there were constant layoffs. Constant layoffs. And so for a decade I was worried about losing my job or watching my colleagues lose their job, and that's a terrible feeling.

Chris: Mm-hmm. 100%

Could you tell our listeners a little bit about neurodiversity? So, what, what is it and why is it important?

Tara: So neurodiversity is the concept that everyone's brains work differently. So the entire world is full of neurodiversity. Now about 80% of people have brains that work within a range that society considers typical, right?

So our vernacular for that, we say that's neurotypical. But about one in five people so 20% of the population has the brain that works outside the range of typical, and we call those people [00:13:00] neurodivergent. And what that means is it's an umbrella term for many different things. It could mean you are autistic, it could mean that you have ADHD. It could mean that you're dyslexic. It could mean that you have learning differences. It could mean that at some point you experienced significant trauma and you have PTSD, and that changed the way your brain works. So this idea of neurodiversity thinks about all different learning styles, communication styles, things like spatial awareness, things like social interactions, how you and I are interacting right now is different to how you might interact with someone else or someone else might interact with you.

So we have these different brain functions that turn us into who we are. And neurodiversity is understanding the full landscape of those.

Chris: Oh, that's, so interesting that that 20% is interesting. That's a lot higher [00:14:00] than, than I would've expected. You know, we have a 60 person organization, right?

So it's 12 people would be neurodivergent, which is a far higher number than I was expecting. I imagine higher than a lot of people would think.

Tara: Yeah, and that's why I always say your work place is already neurodiverse, whether you know it or not. And some people choose to disclose their diagnosises, right?

Some people choose not to disclose them for a number of reasons. Some people are diagnosed, some people are not. And if you think about, you know, the seventies, the eighties, the nineties, we weren't so good at diagnosing ADHD, and autism and dyslexia, right? We've gotten much better at it and we understand the criteria much better. And we're understanding when children have different needs, how to address those and then take that with them into adulthood. And you see today a lot more adults being diagnosed.

Mm-hmm.

And one of the things I've seen as an emergence of neurodiversity ERG groups, at big companies from [00:15:00] adults who are, finally understanding their own autism diagnosis, finally understanding their own ADHD diagnosis sometimes through the diagnosis of their children.

'Cause a lot of times it is genetic and so you find out your child is autistic and all of a sudden the neuropsychologist is saying, have you ever been tested? Do you understand how your brain works? So it's everywhere around us. And being cognizant and acknowledging it just makes the world a better place.

Chris: Yeah.

 We interrupt this podcast for a quick 30 second introduction to Engtal the host of her success Engtal is a US-based staffing agency specializing in engineering and technology. We have an insatiable passion for diversity, equity, and inclusion, and part of our mission is to balance the diversity scales in our industry.

We are so tied to this mission that we donate a thousand dollars from every diverse placement made to our very own nonprofit Diversify the Future. We then use that money to fund scholarships for underrepresented [00:16:00] groups of people to help them obtain a STEM degree. If you're an engineer or a tech professional looking for a new position, or maybe you're hiring for talent in this space and want a recruitment partner, please get in touch.

Chris: I think sometimes when people talk about the topics that we talk about on this podcast, sometimes it can be a little sensitive and almost a little negative, but I think one of the really positive things in the world today is how far we've come.

Understanding things like this, understanding mental health issues, understanding trauma, understanding that, exactly what you describe, everyone thinks differently. I've only been in the workplace for, for just over 10 years, but in the decade that I've been in the workplace, things have been absolutely transformative compared to where they were at the start of my career, the idea of telling my boss, that someone was neurodivergent, therefore we should talk to them differently 10 years ago and I'm probably kicked outta the office for saying that. Whereas now I feel that, you know, people are a lot more kind of, you know, aware of a lot of this stuff.

What are your vision and what's next for [00:17:00] Aspiritech? You know, you've been at the reins for just over a year now. Where are you hoping to take things?

Tara: Well, I would love for us to scale and grow significantly over the next few years. So we are investing in so much upskilling and learning for our team.

I'm gonna give you an example, Chris. We signed up for LinkedIn learning about seven months ago and in seven months, our 100 team members have taken more than 7,000 courses.

Chris: Wow.

Tara: So we have a team that's really committed to bettering themselves and upskilling, and so we're expanding our services. We're thinking about what else we can do, and I know that every company in America, every company in the world is becoming a digital company in 2023. They have quality assurance needs, they have accessibility needs, they have data needs. And so for us to be filling those needs for companies, I think is a no-brainer. [00:18:00] We're marketing like crazy to have people understand our capabilities and understand our mission, and hopefully we'll be able to triple or quadruple over the next five to 10 years.

 You can't get through a podcast without saying AI today. , we're also thinking how about how AI is gonna transform testing and accessibility and data services, and we really want to lead the charge on that. So we're actually doing a Paul Bunyan versus chainsaw projects right now to understand how we can be better and more efficient, leveraging AI to do the work that we do. And we have a team that's really passionate about that as well. So I just, I see the sky as the limit for us.

Chris: Wow. That's super exciting.

 A great, great time to be a leader in, in this space. I read an article that you posted, on Forbes, about the power of listening to drive organizational change. And this was always something that, very much resonated with me.

In my early career, I was always a bit worried that I wouldn't be able to run my organization because I was maybe too much of a listener, and [00:19:00] a lot of the CEOs or senior leaders that I saw were, basically the loudest voice in the room. And they were bullish and they're just shouting louder than everybody else.

As I became more experienced. I realized that was probably a strength , more than a weakness. Can you give me an example of where you've seen that, where you've seen that listening aspect really have a positive impact and drive change in an organization?

Tara: Well first thank you for sharing that because that's incredible and actually makes me think we should be best friends and go for coffee because I have experienced

Chris: That sounds good.

Tara: So much of the same. Right. And I, I really had to overcome my shyness, when I was in my twenties to, to find my voice and figure out how to be a leader and, I spent a lot of time trying to figure out how to lead more like those men who are the loudest voice in the room.

And over time, especially as I became 40, I realized my strength was not being like that at all.

Mm-hmm.

Right. It was being humble and willing to listen to people and I'll give you two examples, [00:20:00] two powerful examples. I think one is, as I mentioned at the beginning, I came in and transformed media organizations, and that means asking journalists and editors to change the way they've done their job.

And journalists and editors are incredibly passionate people about their work, and they're highly ethical and highly motivated about their own credibility. And so a lot of leaders would come in, not understand that, not listen to them, demand a lot of change, and then wonder why the digital transformation failed miserably.

And what I tried to do was come in and understand what motivates them. And in part, I knew because I was passionate about journalism and so I could listen. And I could listen to their concerns, right? They didn't wanna do clickbait headlines because they care about the ethics and credibility of what they're putting [00:21:00] into the world.

So we talked about how to do traffic driving strategies in an ethical and upfront way. We talked about transparency on the web. We talked about increasing access to information, to large groups of people to make the world a better place, right? And so that listening and understanding what was motivating that team allowed us to be successful in digital transformation rather than letting it yet again fall in its face.

I'll give you one more example, from my team today, so I am a person who moves very quickly in my work. I was asking a lot of change, to happen from my team members. We were rolling out a lot of new processes, a lot of new SOPs, a lot of new initiatives and strategies, and doing a lot of all hands calls and team calls to understand what our vision was gonna be for the next five years.

[00:22:00] I joined a discussion with our autism advocacy group, which is a group of people who really help us be better, to our autistic employees at Aspiritech. And this group reminded me that our team members need more time to process when changes come through. And they also prefer to have different options available to them to understand the change.

So what I mean by that is a visual option.

Mm-hmm.

A written option, a verbal option. Right.

Some people like bullet points, some people like images. And I thought to myself when they shared this with me, how I should have been thinking of that at every workplace I'd ever led, because of course you have visual learners and auditory learners and people who like to process privately and people who like to process out loud.

So we revamped the way we did things to make sure there was always a visual and always a bullet point as well as a opportunity to process [00:23:00] auditorily. We started adding optional town halls when process changes were rolled out so that people could ask questions and express their ideas and concerns.

Or they could not, if they were private processors, they could choose not to attend. So, you know, this idea of listening to understand what people need is just going to make your organization stronger.

Chris: Nice. Yeah, that's, that's so interesting. I've learned something on this podcast today, , around, that change management piece and the different, ways to communicate, a message like that.

 How could you promote or encourage that ability to listen? Like, I feel it's such an important part, I feel there are so many people that they almost listen to talk, they're waiting for someone to finish talking so they can talk, as opposed to active listening and, and really taking on board, what's going on.

 If you are running an organization or you just running a team and you are trying to encourage that listening piece between people, how would you recommend doing that?

Tara: That's such a great question and such a great point that you're making, we've all been in [00:24:00] conversations like that where we feel like the person's just waiting to talk next.

They're not actually listening to us. And those are not fun conversations to be in. You sort of wanna escape them as soon as you can, right? So I think one of the first things I always say is, is just to acknowledge it. Acknowledge the need to listen, right. Going to your meetings and think I'm sharing a message. Yes. But I also wanna listen to how that message is received.

Mm-hmm.

Another thing I think is really important is to come outside of your bubble. I know and have seen many executives who spend a lot of time talking to each other, so,

Yeah,

and that's great. That's fine. We need to talk to each other, but you also need to listen at every level of the organization.

 So I came into a Aspiritech and I spent, a half an hour with each and every single team member. Many of whom I probably wouldn't regularly get to talk to on a day-to-day basis, but I really wanted to make an effort [00:25:00] to understand how people were feeling at every level of the organization.

So I think that is really, really critical. You have to get outside your bubble. And then I, I think the third thing I will say about active listening, as you say, is, actually meaning it when you ask for feedback and you're listening to it and figuring out how to follow up and learn from and do the things that are suggested.

Now, I'm not saying that it's decision by committee or that everyone's ideas get enacted all the time, or everyone's concerns are addressed because that's not possible and that's indecisive leadership. Right? But. When good ideas do bubble up, and they absolutely are going to, how are you gonna make them happen?

When valid concerns come to light, are you going to be arrogant and annoyed that those concerns came to light? Or are you actually going to be humble, [00:26:00] acknowledge that you're not perfect and address them? And I think that is the most critical piece of listening. It's the listening, but then it's also the follow up.

Chris: Yeah, no,

I couldn't agree more. One of the things that we've always tried to, you know, we've kind of prided our management team on this and, and we've really tried to push, is the ability to have your mind changed in a meeting. If you go into every single meeting, you know, and you have the ability to have your mind changed, I just think that that's a really, really powerful, thing.

 My dad told me, when I was young, Always understand the other side of the argument. We would debate politics and, and things like that. And his first thing was like, look, go and look at this. You know, what is the counter argument? If you truly understand the counter argument, you know, that makes your opinion so much more powerful because either it reinforces what you initially thought and you truly believe that through and through.

Or maybe you change your mind, but you actually have a balanced opinion between these two things and you have chosen this thing. If you can get that concept, I think it really helps with that ability to listen. [00:27:00]

Tara: Your dad sounds like an amazing human, and it's just, it's so spot on. And I think the most confident and secure people can change their minds, can understand that they aren't right, I am not right about everything. I'm wrong about so many things. But I'm able to acknowledge it and see it and I often acknowledge the fact that when my team members bring me a problem, they're usually bringing me the solution.

And I'm just there to tell them that they're right and empower them to go do that. And I think that's a really powerful thing. So many people want it to be their own idea. But listening to other ideas is so much more fun.

Chris: Yeah, a hundred percent. And I think you're right. I think it is a, a sign of confidence, saying, I don't know, saying, you know what I was wrong about that.

 In my early career when I probably lacked that a little bit, I was almost a bit, I felt the need to really defend my decisions and say, well, I was wrong, but I was wrong because of [00:28:00] this as opposed to having that confidence saying, you know what, yeah, I kind of messed up there.

 You were right. Well, we should have gone, gone with this idea.

So yeah, very, interesting, thing to learn I think as you become more experienced.

 We're almost coming to, the end here, but , I guess a couple of, final questions.

 If you were to give advice to someone that maybe is neurodivergent, you know, whether they've been diagnosed or not, and maybe they're in their early career, we've got a lot of people graduating, this time of year. They're about to start their career and maybe they are.

 Either concerned or, yeah, they have a little bit of anxiety, what advice would you give that individual?

Tara: So I feel as if I'm ill equipped to give advice to neurodivergent people because I feel like that best comes from other neurodivergent people.

But I will share three things that I would say to to anyone really that I think are applicable and probably even more important for neurodivergent people. One would be to embrace who you are. And I know that takes time and it takes acceptance of yourself. And those things don't [00:29:00] happen overnight.

But man, life is better when you just know who you are and you're happy with it, and you share that with the world. Whether that's your, neurodivergent identity, your LGBTQ+ identity, or just your sense of humor and your personality, and being willing to share that with the world.

 So I think, as soon as someone can to find that willingness to share themselves and embrace themselves, it's huge. The second thing I would say, is to try to understand your brain, right? And I would say that to all people. What are your strengths? What are your weaknesses? What are things that you love to do?

And what are things that you just cannot do? And that may be more exacerbated for someone who's neurodivergent, right? It may be a little more extreme than for those of us who are neurotypical, but it's just so important for all of us. Understand who you are, understand what you need, understand what you bring as talent and passion to the [00:30:00] workplace.

Because I feel like when people are paired with a business need that matches their passion and their talent, amazing things happen. And the third thing I would say is to find a sense of community somewhere. And I think we all need that, every single one of us. But when you're neurodivergent, if you can find other, Autistic people out there, other people with ADHD, other people with minds that think differently.

You're going to feel a sense of inclusion and community and you're going to understand yourself better and you're gonna understand what you have to offer the world better and you're gonna feel like you found a place where you can fit in. And I think that's something all of us absolutely deserve. And just a quick plug for the actually autistic hashtag that's out there on on LinkedIn and other social media platforms.

It's a fantastic community to be a part of.

Chris: So Well, thank you so much. You know, that's said, yeah, I think really, really good advice, some unique advice as well that, you know, we've not heard, on this podcast before. That is, yeah, everything that we have time for, I think this has absolutely flown by feel like we've been on it for about five [00:31:00] minutes. But we, we have used up all the time. Tara, thank you so much. Really, really, great to have you, on the podcast for anyone that wants to get in contact with Tara, when we, send this out, , our contact information will be on there.

She's obviously on, on LinkedIn. I'm sure she wouldn't mind, I mean anyone reaching out. Thank you again Tara, and it's been been an absolute pleasure.

Tara: Thank you, Chris, for having me. I have had such a great time chatting with you. You have such great insight.

Chris: Awesome.

Thank you very much.

Thank you so much for listening to today's Her Success podcast, brought to you by Engtal we hope you found this episode, instructive, educational and inspiring. Don't forget to tune in next week.